Going further the stations could even be built by private developers who would get a height bonus for building the station. The 2nd Ave-Utica Ave line would be better placed as it was once designed to run down Houston St with a connection to the unused center tracks on the 6th Ave line at 2nd Ave. Or just stay on your train. You’ve recognized its unused capacity and proposed filling it by connection to Jamaica Ave.; a Utica Ave. branch could work as well.. Also, Utica Av(or Malcolm X Blvd because a BMT Line is past Fulton St)becomes smaller past Fulton St, so instead of one lane being ripped up, a whole street would be ripped up, causing the B46 to be detoured north of Fulton St. An elevated line would be a bad idea too, because north of Fulton St is just 2-story Pre-War homes, and the rooftops are around the same height as the tracks. But what this plan does is allow for a new and better city to grow around the line rather than be divided by it. Finnaly, the A/C Utica Av station is directly under Utica Av. Could be I’m missing an important element here. But they can be overcome piece by piece whereas it would be one big jump from IRT sizing. Bubble the reworking there to the top of the list and once done it can do 12 B Div. You’ll love every bite of our classic tuna sandwich. The second is a simple addition of new switches which is what I’m going with. About Subway Your local Brooklyn Subway® Restaurant, located at 273 Utica Ave brings delicious ingredients and mouth-watering flavors in billions of sandwich, salad and wrap combinations to you. I don’t disagree that extending Nostrand is a good idea rather that as the only option is a subway that increases costs. Well then what are we waiting for? Two island platforms . Subways near Utica Avenue operate 24/7 and more than 4 million people pass the turnstiles every day. Building a subway in these conditions means having to deal with tunnel flooding more so than normal and flooding means corrosion. Top track level The IRT built their Utica Ave station west of Utica Ave with turnouts in the track walls so that a branch could split. It will be express. This would allow for at least a 3rd express track running along the length of the Utica Ave subway much like the Concourse Line in the Bronx. That already will cost millions, possibly billions. Subway prematurely. So feeding more traffic into LEX which is so crowded while it actually misses the work destinations for most of these new riders might not be the best way to go. Not that it would do anything for tunnel though. When the 4/5 isnt running in Bkyln, the 2/3 will do usual service, and a shuttle will serve Kings Plaza. Bus, train • 6h 46m. I know this is something that the City won’t consider if they ever release their Utica Ave plan which is why I want to start the discussion now. Looking at a modern take on IND plan, since the Chrystie St Connection rerouted the 6th Ave express trains over the Manhattan Bridge and the extra local service to Williamsburg, there is no extra capacity along 6th Ave to connect with the new line. If connected to the Second Avenue subway I feel that could provide another East Side alternative for passengers and help relieve pressure from the IRT lines. Awkward transfer? Late nights a shuttle will run from Franklin Av to New Lots Av. I will say that the Utica stop spacing is fine; it’s not any wider than the Queens Boulevard local and it stops at every intersecting street with a frequent bus connection. Utica Avenue is home to the busiest bus route in Brooklyn, the local and Select Bus Service B46. The Utica Avenue corridor is home to the busiest bus routes in Brooklyn. Allows handicap access via one elevator instead of three. Since you’ll be maxing out both midtown IRT express lines, New Lots and Utica combined will always have to equal Nostrand. Click on the Bus route to see step by step directions with maps, line arrival times and updated time schedules. This leaves the possibility of resurrecting the Worth St Line, a branch off the 8th Ave local that would split south of Canal St and head east via Worth St and East Broadway. Fulton St and Utica Ave, Fulton St and Stuyvesant Ave . Maybe place one of the L’s tracks in the cut and the other over it at street level? The line would run under Utica Avenue to Ave I as subway, then become elevated at Ave J and continue to Avenue N. It would then curve southwesterly to Avenue S and make its way to its terminal at Nostrand and Voorhies Avenues in Sheepshead Bay. The Culver Viaduct is at maximum 90 feet wide requiring it take up half the block (Brooklyn blocks like these are 200 feet wide). Few problems. hunting lodge motif with crossbeams. The cheapest way to get from Mount Rushmore to Portland costs only $154, and the quickest way takes just 6½ hours. because I’m so taken with the main idea of applying a new technique to Skip stop on Fulton? My thinking is that the train has to slow down and then speed up for the stop in the station anyway. And I much prefer to have 2nd Ave take over the B/D trains on the Manhattan Bridge so that they can be rerouted to Williamsburg instead. Looking at Census data based on commuting patterns of riders coming from the two zip codes along Utica Ave the primary destination for most riders is downtown Brooklyn with Midtown West second. North of Fulton there’s a park for it to curve through, similar to your design for the Second Ave. A, closer station spacing, only holds against full-length express trains. With subway costs so high els may be the only way to go. Also, that wasnt a smart move, moving the 3 and 5 so that all local trains past Franklin Av are linked up together, and all express trains past Franklin Av are linked until Utica, except one’s local and the other’s still express.Most passangers at Flatbush Av( I should know, this is part of my daily commute) So there’s a source of northern capacity right there. And this angle within the station level might be improved if it were to be reworked for two tracks instead of four with no fresh excavation needed. Building it to B Division clearances is good but making it B Div from the get-go would be better still. A lower cost solution to your previous What’s needed for this to work, however, is the rebuilding of the Rogers Junction, the junction of the trunk and the Nostrand Ave Line at Franklin Ave. I disagree that people can just simply take a bus, but extending the Nostrand Av line south is needed. The junction is built awkwardly where the tunnels are twisting in such a way to become bi-level. There are 9 ways to get from Ridgewood to Utica by train, bus, car, plane or subway. While there are arguments to be made for extending the Nostrand Ave Line south I would argue that with the addition of Utica Ave that demand would be reduced as riders coming from the east or southeast would take Utica over a bus to Nostrand. When the IND built their lines they did so with room for expansion and most of the provisions and abandoned sections that did get built had something to do with Utica Ave. Finnaly, the IRT Utica Av doesn’t have the provisions for having a IND Utica Av, so either one of two plans will have to happen: 1- Build a Eastern Pkwy Station under the 3/4 and have a steep incline back up to Empire Blvd so it can be able to portal out wherever (originally I thought it was going to portal out at Empire Blvd but I guess im wrong). With more TPH there will be less crowding at Franklin or Nevins. The transit desert is along Utica Ave south of Eastern Parkway. That gives you much more cacapity to work with than just the 10 tph you be stuck with via your plan (assuming you mean to have it be the Queens Blvd branch of 2nd Ave). Both Fulton/8th Ave. and Eastern Pkwy/Broadway 7th routes hit up with all three major employment destinations. To keep interlining you need to go with the complicated and expensive Roger’s rebuild and I don’t think that the service pattern justifies the cost. C all times except late nights . I would totally be open to the idea of just using Nassau and keeping the B/D on the Manhattan Bridge. Place station house under tracks in median. The Utica provisions at Fulton are on the upper level and cross perpendicular to the lower platforms. They are not evenly shared. Like on the Jamaica el. Taking this one step further this also supposes that, as the Worth St Line was to serve a similar catchment area as the BMT Centre Street Line (J train) that the new subways through the Lower East Side would replace the Centre St Line, thus leaving it up for abandonment (if this seems too preposterous keep in mind that half of this line is already, for all intents and purposes, abandoned). – BBGUN63. Take the line 2 subway from Church Av to 34 St-Penn Station; Take the train from New York Penn Station to Newark Airport Railroad Station; Fly from Newark (EWR) to Albany (ALB) EWR - ALB; Take the line 905 bus from Colonie Station - Central Ave & Colonie Center to Downtown/Train Station - State St & Broadway; Take the train from Schenectady to Utica Amtrak Station; $152 - $439. The Italian B.M.T.® sandwich is filled with Genoa salami, spicy pepperoni, and Black Forest Ham. Made-to-order with your choice of crisp veggies, served on our freshly baked bread. It’s smarter to do a IRT Utica line because the demand for a Utica Av Line is not in Bed-Stuy and Williamsburg, but in East Flatbush, Flatlands, and Mill Basin. Off-road (Chicago style). south of 63rd – V from Bypass to Utica via Williamsburg, 15 TPH each. An additional part of the project would be to create a better terminal at Flatbush Ave-Brooklyn College. Given the history of cost overruns and delays that the MTA is infamous for it seems foolish to build a project which requires so many moving parts even before the most important section can be built. The A/C line in Brooklyn can’t be tampered with, because both trains are crowded during rush hours, and the A or C cant be diverted before Broadway Junction, because then at the nearest express station, your going to see a huge crowd, and the point of Broadway Junction is to drop off the passangers to other trains to get home or to get to work. Then you can continue trains on into Brooklyn. IF you really wanted to have a branch off of Fulton then the construction would not be as simple as you suggest. How can build the Utica Ave Subway? want to either go to Midtown West or Midtown East. And D, when the line is being built, less lanes will have to be teared up. Its an extremely clever plan that I and many other would have never of came up with but there are some wholes that are worth being built up. Freeway-style concrete pillars. And D as well if cut-and-cover is used. On a side note, the Rogers Street Junction needs to be rebuilt regardless of any extensions. I outlined my plans for 2nd Ave in a previous post but one thing I only mentioned in passion was how Phase 4 could be achieved cheaper if it was connected to Nassau St after Chatham Sq (as in, 2nd Ave would not connect to Centre St by Bowery by to Nassau St by Chambers). It could call back to Second System plans to run trains from 2nd Ave. through South 4th St. and, eventually, down Utica Ave. As someone wiser than I recently put it: “Ultimately a project with a higher up front price tag will be an invaluable investment that will pay dividends far into the future.”. The problem here is between these two streets one lane will have to be teared up and bus stops will have to be relocated and detoured, which messes up a lot of commuters daily travel. Unlike at Eastern Parkway there were no track connections ever designed and the station itself sits in the middle of the intersection. Why Brooklyn Needs the Utica Avenue Subway Extension. But the question is what is more dire, commuters coming from Wall St (with their many different subway options) or those coming from Williamsburg (with the congested L)? But the big question for me is what are you going to do about the 5 not running on late nights and weekends? Utica Ave Subway has been proposed in various plans from the 1920s until today. Crescent sections of the Jamaica line, clearing most but not all of the messy By Frank J. Prial. Alon Levy did a back-of-the-napkin estimate of how much a mostly elevated line would cost and found it a better cost per rider than even 2nd Ave. For future expansion of the system we need to be open to thinking outside the box. Additionally, the Fulton-Utica service would have to be local only with an awkward transfer at Utica Ave station. A 1931 plan shows two tracks with side platforms to be built. Say we got together and bought the local NBA franchise. Part of why I wanted to write this post was to point out the downsides to going with an IND style Utica Ave over IRT. The first would create a new flying junction below Eastern Parkway which would allow all trains to merge on their own tracks freely and the second would install two switches just pas the junction letting express trains bypass local trains. The first is that much of the line, as proposed by both IRT and IND engineers, was to be an elevated line. You bring up a good point. The 9 residences, all located at Avenue M can all be replaced (and with new development replaced 100 times over) while the commercial and industrial buildings would all be replaced by buildings of much higher density and better uses than chop shops. A hybrid of 1 and 6: The el is still over roadway On the other hand, your SAS plans involve building at least two complicated junctions to active tracks (including one under the East River) and lots of reliability-tanking interlining. Pseudo-viaducts. Sorry, your blog cannot share posts by email. These look less industrial than plain 7. The second plan would be far cheaper but would require that only local trains have access to Nostrand Ave while the express trains would split past the junction so that half would continue as locals and the other would run express. Knowing the reality of MTA construction I would argue that the second plan is the preferable option. But Utica predates 2nd Ave by at least a decade. I’m not opposed to interlining but given the unique layout of the Rogers Junction the only affordable option is to segregate the services. Secondly is that the IND plan, like most of their plans, was wildly over designed and would require extra miles of subway from Eastern Parkway to the Lower East Side as well as a much wider 4 track trunk line instead of the IRT’s proposed 2/3 track line (much like the New Lots branch the line would have been built with 2 tracks and space for a third to be added later). Weekends the 3 runs in Bkyln so it can serve New Lots as usual on weekends. Double-deck single tracks. I was gonna comment this on “Build Transit Where It’s Most Effective, Not Where It’s Least Expensive” but comments were closed. Subway: 2, 5; How to get to Mta B8 Utica ave by Bus? Bring line to ground at terminal. The current switch layout requires that local trains merge directly in front of express trains causing delays and capacity constrains. And also, what will take the (B)’s place as the Brighton Express? Even 2nd Ave had to take a few buildings for ventilation plants. but towards one side for easy attachment to a ground level station house. On the opposite side, from Eastern Parkway to Empire Blvd, the slope descends 66 feet. Just an idea! el structures around Broadway Junction. See … IRT Utica only needs a simple switch added to Rogers Junction to start running. Same goes for if a problem happens by Flatbush or Utica, a train can be easily detoured to another branch. There is another part of the IND plan which, as far as I can tell, no one has figured out or brought up yet. In IND reports it was proposed to have the line remain as a subway until Ave J where it would ascend to the surface and run elevated, originally to Sheepshead Bay, then later a more simplified route down Flatbush Ave to Floyd Bennett Field. Merchant groups aren’t going to sue you for driving their business away. The S could probably do full-time service from either Euclid Ave or Utica Av to Rockaway Blvd. Other sources indicate that the unused level at Fulton St.’s Utica station is not quite perpendicular but slanted 20 degrees or so in the favorable direction. Well, actually it’s curving away but Ave H avoid the curve and take you to it at Albany Ave. And from that point it’s all residential and there are no freight sidings. Order from anywhere, get your favorites fast and rack up rewards. The MTA studied [PDF] rebuilding this junction in 2009 and came up with two plans. The biggest issue I have with you routings is that it ignores the changes that need to happen at Roger’s Junction. Many will overload the (N) train as a result. I agree with you that IRT was sized small for a reason, Tyler. Train • 6h 22m. This would also take relief off of the (B)/(Q) trains to the west. Hey, me again. Just skip it. As per your proposal. You’ve shown plans to underground the L’s el as well as the Fulton and The MTA study included looking at extending a subway line south from either Fulton Street’s A and C stop or the Eastern Parkway 3 and 4 stops, which would extend the train through the neighborhoods of East Flatbush, Flatlands, Marine Park, and Mill Basin. on Jamaica Ave to burrow the Broadway El into Fulton Line’s station. Now during service changes where the 2/3 arent running to Bkyln, the 4 will serve Flatbush, the 5 will go to Utica, and a shuttle will run from Utica to New Lots. So on late nights obviously the 2/4 would run local. SAS-Grand Central future awkward? 3. Your plan strips the West End from one-seat access to Chinatown and Midtown. Then a tunnel would have to be built from Fulton to Eastern Pkwy, where the tunnel would have to be built directly under the 3/4, then a steep incline from Eastern Pkwy to Empire Blvd, so a portal could be built for the elevated line to Kings Plaza. By the way Vanschnooken, I really like your operations-focused outlook; I like that you used your custom track map as a base for all of the ideas you proposed, since tweaking your operations is usually a lot cheaper and effective in the long run. I thought that was my craziest but…. It looks to be about two miles long. Let’s see how we might mitigate the new round of issues you brought up. Reviving the Nassau loop will only gain low ridership. Have a design contest; results Modern giant boring machines make drilling more cost effective and it’s common for all the tunneling to be complete years before the line can open, primarily because of stations. Even today Utica makes too much sense. While not ideal it is a cheaper way to provide express service. In the Bronx the Grand Concourse Subway was designed to at least compete with the Jerome Ave elevated if not eventually replace it and in Brooklyn the Fulton St Subway was built to replace the Fulton El out to Queens with provisions built to allow a connection with the Jamaica Ave elevated.
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